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 Post subject: Mermaids
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:19 pm 
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I have mermaids in my novel - and remember this is the first fantasy novel I have ever tried to write. I have had a lot of experience with the fantasy element, as you can imagine, being on this forum. :) However - it seems like a silly question but I'm going to ask it anyway, because otherwise I'm going to wonder forever.

Are Mermaids viewed as human? I know they are half fish half man, but are they a creature - as in a sea creature with no soul; or are they humans with a soul, need of a Saviour, a race of mankind and etc? I've been pondering and I can't decide.

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 Post subject: Re: Mermaids
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:46 am 
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I'd say they're about as human as Centaurs or Fauns or other similar creatures... In my opinion, they do have souls and a need for a savior. But it's not like I have any experience in that realm. :rofl:

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 Post subject: Re: Mermaids
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:13 am 
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Saphira wrote:
I know they are half fish half man...

There's no rule that says mermaids have to be half fish and half man. They can just be men who happen to have scaly tails instead of legs, if you want them to. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Mermaids
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:05 pm 
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Aah yes, okay. That makes more sense to me. *Nods* In my book I view them as people who can talk, and they are human rather than animal so I guess it's simply a case of, you interpret them as you wish.

Another question then:

If they are seen as human, people in need of a saviour and so on - well let me explain:

In my book, there is an evil dwarf who is into dark magic; he takes two of these mer-creatures and he casts an evil spell on them both, turning them into something dark, wicked and of his own creation. They then procreate, and their offspring is pure evil. There is no hope for them, no chance of redemption, there were born of pure evil and that is what they are. Kind of like how demons are viewed as I suppose, no chance of redemption, but they are human. I wondered how theologically sound that was though.

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All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king

J. R. R. Tolkien


My favourite quote: "God will give His kindness for you to use when your own runs out."

Pippin's Waggy Tales

Autumn Leaves


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 Post subject: Re: Mermaids
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:36 pm 
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Saphira wrote:
Are Mermaids viewed as human? I know they are half fish half man, but are they a creature - as in a sea creature with no soul; or are they humans with a soul, need of a Saviour, a race of mankind and etc?
Your choice. The current trend is to have fantasy creatures like mermaids and fauns and centaurs and elfs be just as human as humans. However, from what I have read of older fantasy and fairy tales, it was more common then to have them be much less like humans and much more like animals, or like demons and angels. They were often intelligent, however either amoral or fundamentally immoral – rather like the one eyed giants and the monsters and the sirens that the heroes would struggle with and vanquish in their travels.

Saphira wrote:
They then procreate, and their offspring is pure evil. There is no hope for them, no chance of redemption, there were born of pure evil and that is what they are. Kind of like how demons are viewed as I suppose, no chance of redemption, but they are human.
Basically demons spiritually, but with physical bodies rather than spiritual bodies? I think that should be fine. I don't think its a theological flaw for a demon (or demon-like thing) to have a physical body – especially since this is fantasy, and the point, really, is to say 'what if?', if you know what I mean.

As for how they came to be...I'm not quite sure about that. It depends on how you look at it. I don't believe it is theologically sound for any person or thing to be able to force another person into being wholly evil. But if you looked at it like the dwarf 'killed' the actual mer-creatures, but animated their bodies with a demonic-like spirit, I think that would make theological sense. :?

And then, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility (er – probability? :P) for all their offspring to be animated with the same kind of demonic spirit as the parents, rather than the original mer-creature kind of spirit.


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 Post subject: Re: Mermaids
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:01 pm 
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Mistress Rwebhu Kidh wrote:
Your choice. The current trend is to have fantasy creatures like mermaids and fauns and centaurs and elfs be just as human as humans. However, from what I have read of older fantasy and fairy tales, it was more common then to have them be much less like humans and much more like animals, or like demons and angels. They were often intelligent, however either amoral or fundamentally immoral – rather like the one eyed giants and the monsters and the sirens that the heroes would struggle with and vanquish in their travels.


*Nods * I would prefer for them to be human, but then with my aspect of magic and them being pure evil I may be better working with them as less human like.

Mistress Rwebhu Kidh wrote:
Basically demons spiritually, but with physical bodies rather than spiritual bodies? I think that should be fine. I don't think its a theological flaw for a demon (or demon-like thing) to have a physical body – especially since this is fantasy, and the point, really, is to say 'what if?', if you know what I mean.

As for how they came to be...I'm not quite sure about that. It depends on how you look at it. I don't believe it is theologically sound for any person or thing to be able to force another person into being wholly evil. But if you looked at it like the dwarf 'killed' the actual mer-creatures, but animated their bodies with a demonic-like spirit, I think that would make theological sense. :?

And then, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility (er – probability? :P) for all their offspring to be animated with the same kind of demonic spirit as the parents, rather than the original mer-creature kind of spirit.


They are not demons, or spirits though. I am just using demons to describe how they are unable to have any kind of redemption from their place of evil; because basically they were created from evil, though the initial creation used to bring about the evil was through something beautiful.

Mistress Rwebhu Kidh wrote:
But if you looked at it like the dwarf 'killed' the actual mer-creatures, but animated their bodies with a demonic-like spirit, I think that would make theological sense. :?

And then, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility (er – probability? :P) for all their offspring to be animated with the same kind of demonic spirit as the parents, rather than the original mer-creature kind of spirit.


Hmmm, I don't know. See that is the part I am struggling with. They aren't a spirit or a demon, they're a race created from a race almost. They're different because of the magic they were created from. They're completely different from the original race, they have dark magical abilities, but because they were brought about through evil, they have no chance of redemption.

_________________

All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king

J. R. R. Tolkien


My favourite quote: "God will give His kindness for you to use when your own runs out."

Pippin's Waggy Tales

Autumn Leaves


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 Post subject: Re: Mermaids
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:30 pm 
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What I meant by saying 'demon-like' was in a purely spiritual sense...they are, like you are saying, purely evil, and not able to be redeemed.

The difference between these mer-creatures and demons spiritually would be that the mer-creatures didn't have a choice about how evil they were, while demons did.

The thing about having the mer-people like that, evil without choice, is that I do not believe they could be culpable for their actions. They would have a relation to the rest of creation rather like that of a wild beast (except more intelligent and more wholly evil). They should be destroyed because they are evil and destructive, but would not really be morally accountable for the things they do, if that makes sense.

Because I don't believe a creature which has no choice about how evil it is can technically be called a 'moral' creature. I believe it would it would be amoral, like an animal. In other words, not redeemable.

Aaaanyway, I suppose the mer-creatures would be more animal-like spiritually, then? Only with an instinct and nature of great evil, and with a human-level intelligence.


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 Post subject: Re: Mermaids
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:15 pm 
I hope I posted this right, but mermaids are viewed human shapeshifters to sea ghost so there are as far as I know 100 kinds of merfolk and each one is not like the other in any way.
The mermaids with fish tails is the least common theme, more webbed hands and feet, duckfeet or turning into a seacreature is more common, just putting that out there.
hope it helps


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 Post subject: Re: Mermaids
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:20 pm 
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In Hans Christian Anderson's The Little Mermaid, they are neither. They are a sentient race that lives for hundreds of years, but they lack a soul. That is what gave the story's ending its hope. Because she became human, she gained a soul that wandered when she was turned to sea foam, but would eventually be able to get to Heaven.

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 Post subject: Re: Mermaids
PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 3:59 am 
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Lady Kitra Skene wrote:
In Hans Christian Anderson's The Little Mermaid, they are neither. They are a sentient race that lives for hundreds of years, but they lack a soul. That is what gave the story's ending its hope. Because she became human, she gained a soul that wandered when she was turned to sea foam, but would eventually be able to get to Heaven.

Yay! I was just about to bring that up! So glad that someone else did! *high fives Rin* :wave: :D

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 Post subject: Re: Mermaids
PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 4:23 am 
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*high fives* :wave:

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All resemblance to persons, people, friends, relatives, quotes, cultures, artificial intelligences, inside jokes, pets, unclaimed personalities, sentient objects, extra-terrestrials, inter-terrestrials, and draperies living, dead, undead, or comatose in any of my work are purely coincidental, incidental, circumstantial, inadvertent, unplanned, unforeseen, and unintentional. There's seriously no way I was referring to you. Honest.

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 Post subject: Re: Mermaids
PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:22 am 
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Lady Elanor wrote:
They are not demons, or spirits though. I am just using demons to describe how they are unable to have any kind of redemption from their place of evil; because basically they were created from evil, though the initial creation used to bring about the evil was through something beautiful.

Hmmm, I don't know. See that is the part I am struggling with. They aren't a spirit or a demon, they're a race created from a race almost. They're different because of the magic they were created from. They're completely different from the original race, they have dark magical abilities, but because they were brought about through evil, they have no chance of redemption.


In my mind, this is kind of what Melkor did to the Elves before Oromë led them to Valinor-or at least the Eldar to Valinor. Melkor (later named Morgoth and is actually Sauron's teacher and master) captured Elves when they were still young and tortured and mutilated them until they were beyond all hope and recognition. The results of his travesty were called the Orcs. The Orcs are also credited as coming from the race of men instead, but their process of creation is still the same.

In this I think your ideas are still the same; they both began as something beautiful and sacrosanct, but were then twisted and mutilated until they were lost forever and not even a shadow of what they might have been, but instead rejoice in their downfall.

Mistress Rwebhu Kidh wrote:
What I meant by saying 'demon-like' was in a purely spiritual sense...they are, like you are saying, purely evil, and not able to be redeemed.

The difference between these mer-creatures and demons spiritually would be that the mer-creatures didn't have a choice about how evil they were, while demons did.

The thing about having the mer-people like that, evil without choice, is that I do not believe they could be culpable for their actions. They would have a relation to the rest of creation rather like that of a wild beast (except more intelligent and more wholly evil). They should be destroyed because they are evil and destructive, but would not really be morally accountable for the things they do, if that makes sense.

Because I don't believe a creature which has no choice about how evil it is can technically be called a 'moral' creature. I believe it would it would be amoral, like an animal. In other words, not redeemable.

Aaaanyway, I suppose the mer-creatures would be more animal-like spiritually, then? Only with an instinct and nature of great evil, and with a human-level intelligence.


Maybe not culpable really, but they would be able to see the good in everything around it and they would just refuse to change. I think it would be more a case of "even the evil are created for the day of judgement (paraphrase mine)" than zero culpability.

I had another point...

If I remember I'll come back.

But it sounds like an intriguing idea!

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 Post subject: Re: Mermaids
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:01 am 
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*nods in agreement with people* Sometimes mermaids aren't even human fish at all. There's one kind that turns into a wild horse, and when you try to ride it out drowns you.

That's an example of an evil mermaid XD

Also, Rinja, I'm glad you brought up The Little Mermaid. I was going to, but then you did. XD so....yeah.

I like this. :cool:

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 Post subject: Re: Mermaids
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:31 am 
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Does it still qualify as a maiden if it is a horse?

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Haud Retene Haud Reverte

All resemblance to persons, people, friends, relatives, quotes, cultures, artificial intelligences, inside jokes, pets, unclaimed personalities, sentient objects, extra-terrestrials, inter-terrestrials, and draperies living, dead, undead, or comatose in any of my work are purely coincidental, incidental, circumstantial, inadvertent, unplanned, unforeseen, and unintentional. There's seriously no way I was referring to you. Honest.

The story so far:
Birthright: Eleventh chapter pending. 28280 words.
Heritage: First chapter drafted.
Legacy: Character and plot development stage.
Get a feel for the land. Visit Lor-Amar today!

Other novels on the brain:
Quicksilver
Shen'oh Story
Crusoe's Star
War Blazer
Seven Arts Story
The Queen's Knave
Polarians
Exile Realms
All Librarians Are Secret Agents


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