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 Post subject: Re: Cobha
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:54 pm 
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It would depend on how you did it. If God gave the foresight or discernment then it would be under Miracle. But if you used a cun (see this thread: http://www.holyworlds.org/fantasy/viewtopic.php?f=108&t=3623) it would be more like using a hound to follow a scent, and would fall under Cobha because it cannot be done in the Familiarworld (there are no cun in the Familiarworld). By the way, what exactly are you referring to by spiritual discernment?

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 Post subject: Re: Cobha
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:09 pm 
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What about a list classified this way?

Tsahraf wrote:
Natural Law: “What is allowed by the course of nature which God set and sustains in motion.”

Tsahraf wrote:
Cobha: “Those abilities (whether of plants, animals, or creatures that bear the Image of God) which are not known to be allowed by natural law in the Familiarworld, but are allowed by the imagination in fiction.”
Thus, basically the Natural Law of the Otherworld in question.
Magic: Anything that does not fall under the Natural Law of the world in question.

Type A: Person-magic. The ability of a person to do something that goes against Natural Law of the world in question.
_______Sub-type A/1: Talent. An inborn ability to do something that goes against Natural Law or Cobha. Easily perverted from its original purpose.
_______Sub-type A/2: Gained. An ability gained from an outside source to do something that goes against Natural Law or Cobha. Once given, is not usually taken away and can be easily perverted to the human’s will.

Type B: Spirit-magic. Not really magic at all, and perhaps to the only kind to be found in the Familiarworld. Many people are familiar with it. In this case, deities as well as their evil counterparts have power that they can ‘lend out’ to humans, enabling the human to do something out of the ordinary for a while, until they withdraw their power. Because the human is simply a channel, they cannot take this power and do with it what they like. See ‘Miracles’ and ‘Sorcery’.

Type C: Person-cobha. The ability of a person to do something that is magic in the Familiarworld, but falls under the Natural Law of the Otherworld, even if rare. Electrical System could go here.

Type D : Impersonal-cobha. Akin to George Lucas’ Force, or Robert Jordan’s saidin/saidir. An impersonal source of power that can be tapped.
______Sub-type D/1: Independent. Like the Force, a replacement for a deity. Could possibly have a ‘will’ and be able to act independently, without human ‘tapping’. Unlikely to found in Christian Fantasy.
______Sub-type D/2: Overflow. An impersonal source of power created by a deity for humans to use, subject to the human’s will.

Type E: Nature’s cobha. The ability of something other than a ‘creature bearing the Image of God’ to do something that is magic in the Familiarworld but fits with Natural Law of the Otherworld.

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 Post subject: Re: Cobha
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:53 am 
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Nice breakdown, Aldara!

Aldara wrote:
Type C: Person-cobha. The ability of a person to do something that is magic in the Familiarworld, but falls under the Natural Law of the Otherworld, even if rare. Electrical System could go here.
I think Tsahraf believes that what he means by "Electrical System" is present in reality, and thus shouldn't count as cobha. I'm still trying to figure this out, though. I wonder some of it actually falls under your "Type B"?

Aldara wrote:
Type D: Impersonal-cobha. Akin to George Lucas’ Force, or Robert Jordan’s saidin/saidir. An impersonal source of power that can be tapped.
Lol, Type "D:" :rofl:

Aldara wrote:
Sub-type D/1: Independent. Like the Force, a replacement for a deity. Could possibly have a ‘will’ and be able to act independently, without human ‘tapping’. Unlikely to found in Christian Fantasy.
That's an interesting point. It seems to me that this would be a kind of "semi-personal" power, if it has a will. Many forces act independently of human activity, though. Gravity, for example. Perhaps it would have to act "intelligently" in some way, for it to be considered to have a will?

Aldara wrote:
Sub-type D/2: Overflow. An impersonal source of power created by a deity for humans to use, subject to the human’s will.
Hm...how is this different from Type C, if it's naturally subject to humans' will? Oh, I see. It's not necessarily "natural", it could be a power offered independently of nature, but still subject to human will. Whereas Type C is integrated into the nature of the otherworld. Is that more or less what you had in mind?

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 Post subject: Re: Cobha
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:43 pm 
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Nicely done, Aldara *applauds*

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 Post subject: Re: Cobha
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:53 pm 
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:blush: Thank you, Seer, cephron.

@cephron- Type C is like Type A/1, except that Type C is a normal talent for someone to have, and Type A/1 is not. See the fire example I used above.
Type D/2 is like saidin/saidir. It's a force, outside of human existence, that humans can tap in to. It's not just an inborn ability, through the two could be combined so that some people have the inborn ability to tap into the force. That's how it was used in Star Wars. The only thing about Star Wars is that it has Type D/1 cobha.

Type D/1 is not like gravity, because gravity has a set of laws -what goes up, must come down. Type D/1 is an impersonal force, yes, but it works through humans. It's not subject to human will, but it is not controlled by a deity. It is the deity.

Is that clearer? Type D/1 is a bit confusing.

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 Post subject: Re: Cobha
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:25 pm 
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I have a devil of a time distinguishing the natural and the supernatural, so maybe you guys can help me out here.

For instance: Is magic in Harry Potter (sorry for the controversial example, but it was the only thing that really illustrated the concept I was going for) actually a form of cobha, because it is "normal" for wizards to do magic, and because there are limitations and rules for its use? If so, could someone give me an example of "real" magic in fiction, as opposed to cobha? Is it cobha when Daffy Duck can pull an axe out from behind his back despite there being no axe nearby and no way for him to have hidden it? If something is outside natural law, does that mean it has no limitations? If not, how do we distinguish "supernatural" limitations from "natural" limitations?

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 Post subject: Re: Cobha
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:26 pm 
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As far as I know the Harry Potter magic was part of an alternate earth cobha. Daffy Duck would not have anything to do with cobha because his creators were not trying to create a consistent alternative to non-fiction, but an inconsistent alternative. Nothing is normal or predictable, thus nothing could be cobha.

_________________
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Tsahraf:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Servant of God, Brother of Christ, and Sealed by the Holy Ghost.

Tsahraf is Hebrew, meaning to refine, cast, melt, purge away, try.

Chahsid Mimetes means Follower of the Holy One, or saint.

Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
I Corinthians 11:1

May Sir Emeth Mimetes find you doing this.
Thank you, in Gods name, thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Cobha
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:13 pm 
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Tsahraf ChahsidMimetes wrote:
As far as I know the Harry Potter magic was part of an alternate earth cobha.


OK. So what would be an example of genuine magic in fiction?

Tsahraf ChahsidMimetes wrote:
Daffy Duck would not have anything to do with cobha because his creators were not trying to create a consistent alternative to non-fiction, but an inconsistent alternative. Nothing is normal or predictable, thus nothing could be cobha.


That's not really true. The Looney Tunes world does operate according to relatively consistent (if completely false) laws of physics.

_________________
Fast and steady wins the race.

Nunquam Reformandus--Never Reforming

"The more laws, the less justice."--Cicero

"I hope I will never write a novel that 'contains characters.'"--Tsahraf

"The knight is a man of blood and iron, a man familiar with the sight of smashed faces and the ragged stumps of lopped-off limbs; he is also a demure, almost maidenlike, guest in a hall, a gentle, modest, unobtrusive man. He is not a compromise or happy mean between ferocity and meekness; he is fierce to the nth and meek to the nth." --C.S. Lewis, "The Necessity of Chivalry"

Current WIPs include:


The Last Flight Of Captain Calder Scott--A Wanderlust Canon Tale (Steampulp Alternate History Adventure Novelette)

Estimated length: 17,000 words.
Currently Completed Length: In Editing Phase

Rejection Letter Count: 1


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 Post subject: Re: Cobha
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:56 am 
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Samstarrett wrote:
For instance: Is magic in Harry Potter (sorry for the controversial example, but it was the only thing that really illustrated the concept I was going for) actually a form of cobha, because it is "normal" for wizards to do magic, and because there are limitations and rules for its use?

Assuming for the purpose of the discussion that magic (the whole ball of wax, not just its existence---more on that point below) in Harry Potter is cobha and not "magic", arguably much of what Harry does (driving off hundreds of dementors in his third year, for example) is "magic"---if something is "normal" to one degree, it can still be "magic" for someone to do it to a far greater degree.
Samstarrett wrote:
If something is outside natural law, does that mean it has no limitations? If not, how do we distinguish "supernatural" limitations from "natural" limitations?

There have to be some sort of limitations for the story to be plausible, maintain narrative tension, etc.---unless it's not relevant to those concerns. The thing is that "magic", while subject to its own rules, is explicitly outside the "natural laws" of the story-world. In Narnia, for example, it's natural for winged horses to exist and be able to fly, and for animals to talk. It's miraculous for normal animals to be made to talk, or for an ordinary horse to be made into a flying horse.

And it's possible for the existence of some sort of way of getting around natural laws (some "magic" system) to be an accepted truth in a story world, i.e. "cobha" (such a useful term!), but any or even every example of it to still be "magical"/miraculous/etc. (yet still subject to its own limitations).

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 Post subject: Re: Cobha
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:26 am 
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I just realized that a very important conversation in my book is about cobha and that I've been trying to name it something, but I can't use the word cobha...

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 Post subject: Re: Cobha
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:15 pm 
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Brendan pointed out that metaphysics is a real world term that means the same thing, so that's something you can use as a starting point, if you want, I suppose. Unless you mean in-universe, then it probably won't work. Not sure I can help much with that either.

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 Post subject: Re: Cobha
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:44 am 
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I'd have to research the history of physics and metaphysics. Maybe I can find something similar that won't be out of place in the mouth of a falcon...

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You can't spell grin without ̶gRIN
Words are my ̶bread and ̶butter.
http://unshakablegirl.com/
http://www.ravelry.com/designers/kitra-skene

Haud Retene Haud Reverte

All resemblance to persons, people, friends, relatives, quotes, cultures, artificial intelligences, inside jokes, pets, unclaimed personalities, sentient objects, extra-terrestrials, inter-terrestrials, and draperies living, dead, undead, or comatose in any of my work are purely coincidental, incidental, circumstantial, inadvertent, unplanned, unforeseen, and unintentional. There's seriously no way I was referring to you. Honest.

The story so far:
Birthright: Eleventh chapter pending. 28280 words.
Heritage: First chapter drafted.
Legacy: Character and plot development stage.
Get a feel for the land. Visit Lor-Amar today!

Other novels on the brain:
Quicksilver
Shen'oh Story
Crusoe's Star
War Blazer
Seven Arts Story
The Queen's Knave
Polarians
Exile Realms
All Librarians Are Secret Agents


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 Post subject: Re: Cobha
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:11 am 
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Yeah, that would make a difference. I had always assumed falcons to be relatively intelligent and well educated though, so metaphysics could sound right at home. :diehappyhalo

Just add monocles.

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 Post subject: Re: Cobha
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:27 am 
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You could use thaumaturgy, theurgy, supernatural, preternatural, psionic, extranatural, paranormal, spiritual, mystic, mystical, paranatural, supernormal, transcendental, or alchemy. They have similar meanings, and you can choose one that has the right sort of meaning for what you want.

I will end up using them all, I am sure.

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Servant of God, Brother of Christ, and Sealed by the Holy Ghost.

Tsahraf is Hebrew, meaning to refine, cast, melt, purge away, try.

Chahsid Mimetes means Follower of the Holy One, or saint.

Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
I Corinthians 11:1

May Sir Emeth Mimetes find you doing this.
Thank you, in Gods name, thank you.


My Book on Amazon.

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 Post subject: Re: Cobha
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 2:25 am 
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Tsahraf ChahsidMimetes wrote:
You could use thaumaturgy, theurgy, supernatural, preternatural, psionic, extranatural, paranormal, spiritual, mystic, mystical, paranatural, supernormal, transcendental, or alchemy. They have similar meanings, and you can choose one that has the right sort of meaning for what you want.

I will end up using them all, I am sure.


I'll have to look some of those up. I want it to run contrary to "magic" which, for my purposes, is the human attempt to control nature through conjuring and other diabolical means. Magic is essentially a knock-off of the God-given powers that come with Lor-Amar's cobha.

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You can't spell grin without ̶gRIN
Words are my ̶bread and ̶butter.
http://unshakablegirl.com/
http://www.ravelry.com/designers/kitra-skene

Haud Retene Haud Reverte

All resemblance to persons, people, friends, relatives, quotes, cultures, artificial intelligences, inside jokes, pets, unclaimed personalities, sentient objects, extra-terrestrials, inter-terrestrials, and draperies living, dead, undead, or comatose in any of my work are purely coincidental, incidental, circumstantial, inadvertent, unplanned, unforeseen, and unintentional. There's seriously no way I was referring to you. Honest.

The story so far:
Birthright: Eleventh chapter pending. 28280 words.
Heritage: First chapter drafted.
Legacy: Character and plot development stage.
Get a feel for the land. Visit Lor-Amar today!

Other novels on the brain:
Quicksilver
Shen'oh Story
Crusoe's Star
War Blazer
Seven Arts Story
The Queen's Knave
Polarians
Exile Realms
All Librarians Are Secret Agents


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 Post subject: Re: Cobha
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 3:41 am 
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The thing about "cobha" is that, as I understand the term, it means the things that are part of the natural laws of the secondary-world that are not part of ours. For example, in Narnia the world is flat, so that the idea of a flat world is normal there; there is thus, of course, no word in "Narnian" for a world being flat. In Aubrey Hansen's as-yet-unpublished Erde everything "fades," which the world's inhabitants only know to remark on because there was a time when it wasn't that way. And in the Tortall series by Tamora Pierce, in addition to "magic" (so called because it is restricted to a class of people, and other beings, with specific gifts), breaking an oath made in one's own blood causes one to die instantly, which is again seen as normal (if a rarely used feature of the way the world works).

In my own work, I've somewhat begrudgingly settled on the term "applied metaphysics" for the category of supernatural abilities including both "the Power" (the ability that God gives some to apply his power more directly) and "magic" and every synonym (which I've decided to say are technical terms for False and forbidden though sometimes temporarily potent imitations).

Of Tashraf's list of terms, of those that I've met at all (his list is the one place I've ever met "paranatural"), I've seen every single one used for something that I would want to avoid evoking were I in your place. But if I had to pick one I would settle on "transcendental," because the one place I've met it used for something not having anything at all to do with God is in the "Transcendentalist" school of American poets.

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Author of A Year in Verse, a self-published illustrated collection of poetry: available in paperback and on Kindle.

My blog includes the following "departments":
  • Background on the Shine Cycle, my planned fantasy series, spanning over two centuries of an imagined world's history, several universes (including various alternate histories and our own future), and the stories of dozens of characters (many from our world).
  • Strategic Primer, a strategy game I'm developing, played by email, assisted by programs I'm developing. The current campaign (moving slowly, less than one turn a month) always needs more players.
  • My poetry.
  • Miscellaneous essays.


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