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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:40 am 
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It is a hard subject to figure out for a Christian or any other book.

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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:58 pm 
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In my book I don't think I'll be using any magic. (gasp) :shock:
Mostly because it saves me the headache and partly because it seems a little out of place in my world. :(
There can still be miracles though. :D
StoryGirl: I love that scene! Nice explanation.

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"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"
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Red Son: 1,726 words http://www.holyworlds.org/forum/viewtop ... 117&t=3008
Prodigal Son: Developing Stage
Grateful Son: Developing Stage
The Setting Sons: Developing Stage
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Tobias the Swift: Developing Stage

Wings from above: Developing Stage

Yeah, most of my books are in the development stage, but I have a lot of ideas! :P


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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:45 am 
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Ya, my next story world won't have magic because it doesn't fit either. (And it can be a headache to figure out how it all works. :roll: )

Thank you. I like how it turned out too. :)

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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:55 pm 
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In my world, magic is simply a built-in part of nature. Sort of like Eragon, there is one language that can be used to harness this element, and the more direct and concise you are with your wording the more likely you are to get the result you wanted. Does that make sense? And do you think that a magic inherent in nature should be usable by good and evil alike?

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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:37 pm 
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Reueldreamseer wrote:
In my world, magic is simply a built-in part of nature. Sort of like Eragon, there is one language that can be used to harness this element, and the more direct and concise you are with your wording the more likely you are to get the result you wanted. Does that make sense? And do you think that a magic inherent in nature should be usable by good and evil alike?


If the magic is inherent in nature, then it was put there by God, and so therefore it is better for good to use it than evil. The evil will corrupt it, and the good ought to seek to bring it back to the glory of God. Like in my stories.

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mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.

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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:09 am 
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In my world, only Drochspior (my Satan-character) uses magic. The 'magic' that the other creatures use was given to them by Ri, so their 'magic' is really just abilities.

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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:27 am 
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Raven of the Wood wrote:
In my world, only Drochspior (my Satan-character) uses magic. The 'magic' that the other creatures use was given to them by Ri, so their 'magic' is really just abilities.


Note: Please don't take this is a critique; I'm trying to be helpful but I fear I come off a bit rude.

Technically, if Drochspior's magic isn't natural ability, then it is implied that he is practicing magic from another source, which would necessarily be higher than himself (since the abilities aren't naturally his) and he is no longer a "type" of Satan since he is not the deepest in the practice of evil. If Satan practices magic which is outside of his angelic abilities then there must be another source of power which is also corrupt but more powerful than Satan; some kind of mystical evil.

We see this sort of thing a lot in secular fantasy, but as I've said elsewhere, evil as a force doesn't work because evil is merely the lack of good.

Sorry if that seems random or silly, I'm sick and it's after ten PM so my thoughts may be incoherent to people who aren't thinking the same thoughts.

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Redemption is to be purchased, to have a price paid. So I was redeemed from my master sin, and from justice, which demanded my death. For He paid the price of sin by becoming sin, and met the demands of justice by dying for us.

For all men have a master. But a man cannot have two masters. For he will love one and hate the other. You cannot serve God and sin. So I die to the old, as He died, and I am resurrected to the new, as He was resurrected.

Note: Ebed is Hebrew for bondsman, Eleutheros is Greek for unrestrained (not a slave).


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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:42 pm 
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Hmm...I see your point. Maybe I can put it this way...

When Drochspior disguises himself as a lion, which he does in Cruthu, the lion uses magic that isn't ability, because a normal lion can't do what Drochspior does. However, Drochspior's magic is ability that is used for evil. Is that even more confusing now? Maybe I'll just have to concede that Drochspior's power is ability. :P

Note: The lion is not demon-possessed, Drochspior is merely taking on a lion-ish form.

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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:18 am 
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Neil of Erk wrote:
Raven of the Wood wrote:
In my world, only Drochspior (my Satan-character) uses magic. The 'magic' that the other creatures use was given to them by Ri, so their 'magic' is really just abilities.


Note: Please don't take this is a critique; I'm trying to be helpful but I fear I come off a bit rude.

Technically, if Drochspior's magic isn't natural ability, then it is implied that he is practicing magic from another source, which would necessarily be higher than himself (since the abilities aren't naturally his) and he is no longer a "type" of Satan since he is not the deepest in the practice of evil. If Satan practices magic which is outside of his angelic abilities then there must be another source of power which is also corrupt but more powerful than Satan; some kind of mystical evil.

We see this sort of thing a lot in secular fantasy, but as I've said elsewhere, evil as a force doesn't work because evil is merely the lack of good.

Sorry if that seems random or silly, I'm sick and it's after ten PM so my thoughts may be incoherent to people who aren't thinking the same thoughts.


Never thought of it that way...

It makes perfect sense after you think about it a little

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"Many who live deserve death, and some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Do not be so eager to deal out death and judgment, for even the Wise cannot see all ends."
-Gandalf

"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, (in Sherlock Holmes)
________________________

Current projects:
Heroes and Demons series:
Lost Son: 3,782 words http://www.holyworlds.org/forum/viewtop ... 117&t=1844
Red Son: 1,726 words http://www.holyworlds.org/forum/viewtop ... 117&t=3008
Prodigal Son: Developing Stage
Grateful Son: Developing Stage
The Setting Sons: Developing Stage
All titles are tentative
_______________
Other books:

Tobias the Swift: Developing Stage

Wings from above: Developing Stage

Yeah, most of my books are in the development stage, but I have a lot of ideas! :P


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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:28 pm 
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I don't use a great deal of magic in most of my stories. However, when I do there are usually two kinds. One is of the Tolkien/Lewis flavor. This is power that is not based on the ability of mortals but the will of the Creator. Other times I'll use magic that is of either the devil or based on human strength. In which case, I always make sure that there are severe consequences.

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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 6:57 am 
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*thinks* I have a question for ye learned writers and readers. I have read a few topics, and am quite new here, but I have been impressed with forum-ers keeping the Bible/God totally involved in these tough topics, such as "are dragons evil, or good, or neither?" or this thread about "magic". I would voice a question, do we ever see magic used in a godly way in the Bible? I say we do not, but.....my point is more than that, why are we so eager, to Christianize magic? Now, I whole realize you folks have put a lotof thought into this, and I hate to dredge it up again, but, why are we so eager to bleach and bring magic in. I believe the topic of magic to be wholly different than the topic of dragons in the sense that magic is blatantly wrong in the Bible. So i ask......why "must" we, or why are we "so eager"(I am guilty as well) of trying to fit magic into our stories?

Greetings, I hope this was not too terrible of a first post for y'all to put up with ;)

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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:18 am 
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Millardthemk wrote:
*thinks* I have a question for ye learned writers and readers. I have read a few topics, and an quite new here, but I have been impressed with forum-ers keeping the Bible/God totally involved in these tough topics, such as "are dragons evil, or good, or neither?" or this thread about "magic". I would voice a question, do we ever[i][/i] see magic used in a godly way in the Bible? I say we do not, but.....my point is more than that, why are we so eager, to Christianize magic? Now, I whole realize you folks have put alotof thought into this, and I hate to dredge it up again, but, why are we so eager to bleach and bring magic in. I believe the topic of magic to be wholly different than the topic of dragons in the sense that magic is blatantly wrong in the Bible. So i ask......why "must" we, or why are we "so eager"(I am guilty as well) of trying to fit magic into our stories?

Greetings, I hope this was not too terrible of a first post for yall to put up with ;)


Welcome to the forum!

Though I can't say I personally am a "learned writer" (though just about everybody else here is. :D), I do have a couple ideas.

I think that "magic" needs to be defined. Is 'magic' like the witchcraft in the Bible? Is it a natural part, a science, of the fantasy world? Is it a gift given by the God-figure in the fantasy world?

If magic is the first type, then I totally agree with you! If you are going to include this type of magic in your story, it MUST be shown as totally and utterly evil. Now, I do not know much about real-world witchcraft, nor do I have any desire to learn about it, so my knowledge of it is very limited.

If magic is the second type, a normal part of nature, then it needs to be limited. What does this type of 'magic' do? What is it's purpose? This is not something on which I have studied, so these are just my immediate observations and questions. I have not used, nor do I plan to use, this type of 'magic' in my story, though. (Not because it is wrong or unsound, but because it doesn't work with my storyline.)

If magic is the last type, a gift from God, then it really isn't magic, at least, not in our sense of the word. In this case, it's more like, and I hesitate to say this, the gifts given to Christians. Here is how I would use this type of 'magic': Upon 'conversion'/belief/surrender to God (in the case of the fantasy world), God endows the person with a certain ability, whether it be healing, dream-seeing, limited control of elements, etc.

I hope this makes sense. It's really late and I'm not even close to being a professional on this topic, so if I am wrong or don't make sense, please forgive me.

~ Evensong


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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:25 am 
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Ahh...Now here is the crux
"If magic is the first type, then I totally agree with you! If you are going to include this type of magic in your story, it MUST be shown as totally and utterly evil. Now, I do not know much about real-world witchcraft, nor do I have any desire to learn about it, so my knowledge of it is very limited.

If magic is the second type, a normal part of nature, then it needs to be limited. What does this type of 'magic' do? What is it's purpose? This is not something on which I have studied, so these are just my immediate observations and questions. I have not used, nor do I plan to use, this type of 'magic' in my story, though. (Not because it is wrong or unsound, but because it doesn't work with my storyline.)

If magic is the last type, a gift from God, then it really isn't magic, at least, not in our sense of the word. In this case, it's more like, and I hesitate to say this, the gifts given to Christians. Here is how I would use this type of 'magic': Upon 'conversion'/belief/surrender to God (in the case of the fantasy world), God endows the person with a certain ability, whether it be healing, dream-seeing, limited control of elements, etc."


We are still taking "magic" basely an wholly evil thing, and "changing" it. I suppose I am asking, why do we try to change it? Is it really our best course of action to take something entirely evil and make it "not evil"? Ye did a great job of a definition search, I am just thinking that perhaps this is not even the right idea, "Changing something we know to be Biblically evil, and making it good because we changeit.

*grins* Aye tis late, so me brain is mostly muddled anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:29 pm 
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I pretty much agree with Evening L. Aspen, but there is one thing that I thought of.

When we say that "magic" is a natural part of our world, or a gift given by God, it's not really magic in that world. I believe that one of Jay's brothers named it Cobha. Cobha's something that is natural in that world, but not in our world. (Tell me if I messed that up, Jay!)

So, basically, if something is a natural, God-given ability, then it isn't evil (or even "magic", really). :)

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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:06 pm 
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Marcher Lord: If tis not magic, let us not call it magic, or "magiks" ;) I wish to hear from one more person though before I let this horse drop.


Thanks
Millardthemk

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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:11 pm 
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Millard, great to see you on here!

Please check out the "Cobha" thread. My "magic" at least isn't magic at all, it is simply something impossible in our world, made possible in my written world. In fact, my "Cobha" was original power endowed to an order of priest-protectors, but is now mostly abuse by those who are given it.

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I am Ebed Eleutheros, redeemed from slavery in sin to the bond-service of my Master, Jesus Christ.

Redemption is to be purchased, to have a price paid. So I was redeemed from my master sin, and from justice, which demanded my death. For He paid the price of sin by becoming sin, and met the demands of justice by dying for us.

For all men have a master. But a man cannot have two masters. For he will love one and hate the other. You cannot serve God and sin. So I die to the old, as He died, and I am resurrected to the new, as He was resurrected.

Note: Ebed is Hebrew for bondsman, Eleutheros is Greek for unrestrained (not a slave).


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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:15 pm 
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Millardthemk wrote:
Marcher Lord: If tis not magic, let us not call it magic, or "magiks" ;)


I agree; I do need to rename it in my world! ;)

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Abby

"The difference between the right word and almost the right word is the difference between lightning and the lightning bug."
~Mark Twain~

Works in Progress:

Note:
Abigail is Hebrew for joy of the Father, and Mimetes is Greek for imitator or follower. I am a joyful follower of my King and Father, the Creator of all things.
I stand in support of Jay, for he is my brother in Christ.


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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 6:05 pm 
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Welcome Millardthemk! I must say you have some interesting views and made me think of things I've never thought about. If you ask me, I would say that though it is a natural thing in the worlds we made up and not really magic, but the people in the worlds make up aren't really familiar with our world, so they would have a word for it (magic). That word would have to be something and when people in our world hear about it, they would classify it as magic because it sounds impossible or fantastical. Plus, Gandalf was said to use magic, even though it was simply an ability given to the maiar.

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Griffin
"Many who live deserve death, and some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Do not be so eager to deal out death and judgment, for even the Wise cannot see all ends."
-Gandalf

"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, (in Sherlock Holmes)
________________________

Current projects:
Heroes and Demons series:
Lost Son: 3,782 words http://www.holyworlds.org/forum/viewtop ... 117&t=1844
Red Son: 1,726 words http://www.holyworlds.org/forum/viewtop ... 117&t=3008
Prodigal Son: Developing Stage
Grateful Son: Developing Stage
The Setting Sons: Developing Stage
All titles are tentative
_______________
Other books:

Tobias the Swift: Developing Stage

Wings from above: Developing Stage

Yeah, most of my books are in the development stage, but I have a lot of ideas! :P


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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:53 pm 
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"Personally, I don't much want to give anyone but my villains and angels supernatural powers, but if I did here's how I would do it.

Alchemy

Alchemy is the best way for a Christian to let their good guys use 'magic' and still not use 'magic'. Technically Alchemy is science not supernatural, but it still has a mysterious feel to it that is often attractive to those who want their main characters to fling fire balls or whatnot. I really can't see any disadvantage to it. So what do you guys think?"


My point,*laughs* is why do we try to make "magic" not "magic" we try to change is. Mold is, reform it, but what does the populace see it as? Magic. It just struck me as odd when I read this thread last night that people were trying so hard to "do magic well" or "God honoring Magic", on one hand I clap for them! This is a wonderful thing ye are trying to do, but....then I ponder....is it really the right course to change "magic" or perhaps we overlook an alternative.

Griffin:
" I would say that though it is a natural thing in the worlds we made up and not really magic, but the people in the worlds make up aren't really familiar with our world, so they would have a word for it (magic). That word would have to be something and when people in our world hear about it, they would classify it as magic because it sounds impossible or fantastical. Plus, Gandalf was said to use magic, even though it was simply an ability given to the maiar."

Now here I think ye have a point, things that people think are impossible, or fantastical could be a reason why even something that is not "Magic" is called Magic. Yet, EVERYBODY calls Gandalf a wizard, there is not argument there LOL. So saying that it was an ability doesn't really negate the effect on the reader :( In conclusion, I like your idea, yet, I am not sure it really fixes the problem :((.

*grins* Thanks for the welcome!

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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:27 pm 
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PrincessoftheKing wrote:
When we say that "magic" is a natural part of our world, or a gift given by God, it's not really magic in that world. I believe that one of Jay's brothers named it Cobha. Cobha's something that is natural in that world, but not in our world. (Tell me if I messed that up, Jay!)

So, basically, if something is a natural, God-given ability, then it isn't evil (or even "magic", really). :)


I think that's what I was trying to say. :D

~ Evensong


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