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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:26 am 
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IMO, it's hard to say 'okay, these characters have been given this gift from God to do this' if you have characters who have no gifts (or are not proven to be useful in their own way, like hobbits!)

That's why I don't like doing non-human MCs because it's simply not relatable for the reader (and especially viewers of film if the difference is visual!). That's why hobbits make much better MCs than elves. We understand what being a hobbit is like. :)

As to cobha vs. elitism & talents vs. skills:

Very fine line! I think it works best if the power is shown to be distributed evenly between all races and all peoples. But as long as whatever 'religion' you have is distributed evenly, I think it's fine.......... (I mean, who you are and what you can do should not affect your place in the 'religion' of your world.) ('religion' is in quotes because I couldn't think of anything else to call it... )

Also, emphasizing that everyone has talents of their own would help.

Yes, if magic is evil in a story, then there is no desire to engage in it.

Insedar, I don't know what emotion has to do with the problem. If anything, injecting emotion into a scene in which the characters use magic to solve their problems (or attempt to) makes the use of magic worse because it tells the reader that 'it's okay to try to escape your problems through power' when power is not the answer to the world's problems.

Though I have no earthly clue what you're talking about re: Gandalf and Saruman. That is not in the book. :)

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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:31 am 
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Melody Kondrael wrote:
But as long as whatever 'religion' you have is distributed evenly, I think it's fine.......... (I mean, who you are and what you can do should not affect your place in the 'religion' of your world.) ('religion' is in quotes because I couldn't think of anything else to call it... )

Could you explain what you're talking about here? Me confused.
Melody Kondrael wrote:
Insedar, I don't know what emotion has to do with the problem. If anything, injecting emotion into a scene in which the characters use magic to solve their problems (or attempt to) makes the use of magic worse because it tells the reader that 'it's okay to try to escape your problems through power' when power is not the answer to the world's problems.
I'll let Inesdar explain himself. But the Eragon reference he uses is actually one of many occasions where magic fails the MC, which does indeed amplify the emotion of the moment.

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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:45 am 
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Melody Kondrael wrote:
IMO, it's hard to say 'okay, these characters have been given this gift from God to do this' if you have characters who have no gifts (or are not proven to be useful in their own way, like hobbits!)


Hobbits have lots of gifts! Just listen to Gandalf go on and on about them. ;) Frodo would not have made it if he wasn't a hobbit.

Melody Kondrael wrote:
Though I have no earthly clue what you're talking about re: Gandalf and Saruman. That is not in the book. :)


You mean the fact that they are angels? Or what...

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note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:00 pm 
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Mr. Squishy wrote:
Melody Kondrael wrote:
But as long as whatever 'religion' you have is distributed evenly, I think it's fine.......... (I mean, who you are and what you can do should not affect your place in the 'religion' of your world.) ('religion' is in quotes because I couldn't think of anything else to call it... )

Could you explain what you're talking about here? Me confused.


Okay, 'religion' is in quotes because a lot of people object to calling Christianity a religion - "religion is man's attempts to reach God, Christianity is God's way to reach man", etc, etc.

What I mean by distributed evenly...

Good example: In real life, saving faith in Christ is something that anyone can have. (unless you're a Calvinist, in which case it's only for the elect...but I have a problem with that anyway)

Very Bad Example: In the Star Wars films, the Jedi religion is only for those "random" (or possibly genetically linked because it seems to run in families) people who happen to be Force-sensitive. Other people can believe in the Force, all right (Han Solo) but they aren't part of the religion. It doesn't do them any good. (it, of course, helps the MC, because after Han Solo believes the Force is real, he's more willing to help Luke, but that just compounds the problem.)
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But the Eragon reference he uses is actually one of many occasions where magic fails the MC, which does indeed amplify the emotion of the moment.


That is a good point, that more emotion can be gotten when even extra power fails - I didn't realize that that example was one in which it actually failed.

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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:49 pm 
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Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Melody Kondrael wrote:
IMO, it's hard to say 'okay, these characters have been given this gift from God to do this' if you have characters who have no gifts (or are not proven to be useful in their own way, like hobbits!)


Hobbits have lots of gifts! Just listen to Gandalf go on and on about them. ;) Frodo would not have made it if he wasn't a hobbit.

Melody Kondrael wrote:
Though I have no earthly clue what you're talking about re: Gandalf and Saruman. That is not in the book. :)


You mean the fact that they are angels? Or what...


Yeah, but not the type ya'll are talking about here. They're very human-like. :)

I knew about the angelic nature of the Maiar. Insedar was talking about 'drawing Saruman out of Theoden'..............that didn't happen in the book.

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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:02 pm 
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Ah yes, you are right there.

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I am knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order, and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.

note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.

Proverbs 25:8 Go not forth hastily to strive, lest thou know not what to do in the end thereof, when thy neighbour hath put thee to shame.


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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:14 pm 
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Good example: In real life, saving faith in Christ is something that anyone can have. (unless you're a Calvinist, in which case it's only for the elect...but I have a problem with that anyway)


Just curious, (I don't really want to start a debate or anything) what is your problem with it? :)

Quote:
I knew about the angelic nature of the Maiar. Insedar was talking about 'drawing Saruman out of Theoden'..............that didn't happen in the book.


Gandalf did change Theoden's mind back because Saruman had twisted it through Wormtongue, even if he didn't actually draw Saruman out.

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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:48 pm 
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My problem with Calvinism in short:

If 'the elect' means 'random people who may or may not actually have even heard of the Truth' then it's a problem. It's also a problem if it means that there are people who believe in Christ as Savior and follow Him - and then they aren't one of the predetermined 'elect' so they are left out.

On the other hand, haven't researched sufficiently. I also know that there are a large number of varieties of Calvinists.

(I personally believe that it's a combination of the elect and personal choice--the 'elect' in the Bible is a term that simply refers to the fact that God knows who is going to choose Christ before they do. :))

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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:00 pm 
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And re: Gandalf, Saruman, and Theoden:

In the book, Gandalf merely removed Wormtongue (by apparently scaring him or temporarily striking him down, either way by a show of power - it was vague) and allowed Theoden to choose. There was nothing else - it was Theoden's personal moral courage that refused the trickery of Saruman's spy Wormtongue.

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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:43 am 
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Melody: You are correct about the way Gandalf 'took care' of Theoden. That was actually built into his limits (to a degree) as a wizard.

It is best, however, if you kept discussions about Calvinism and other off-topic topics to private messages, or to the general discussion room (not Calvinism though, keep that one out of the forum haha). Thanks!

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I am knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order, and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.

note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.

Proverbs 25:8 Go not forth hastily to strive, lest thou know not what to do in the end thereof, when thy neighbour hath put thee to shame.


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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:24 am 
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Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Melody: You are correct about the way Gandalf 'took care' of Theoden. That was actually built into his limits (to a degree) as a wizard.

It is best, however, if you kept discussions about Calvinism and other off-topic topics to private messages, or to the general discussion room (not Calvinism though, keep that one out of the forum haha). Thanks!


Oh, yeah, because Gandalf wasn't allowed to use physical force or his inherent power to force people to do anything - it had to be that person's choice to help fight against Sauron.

Ah, okay. I think I ought to be done with the topic anyway--I don't think I really know as much as I thought I knew. :) And I shall refrain from making random comments like the one that started the topic. :)

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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:04 pm 
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You guys are making it sound wrong to have magic like Eragon's magic.
Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
If it is a good thing in your story (I am using the black magic definition of magic here), then you might have problems. But if you have magic and it is evil, then that is really really good: if anything it will dissuade people from using magic. See?


I might be taking offense because I have magic like Eragon's. My world was developed (I say developed...but it was more like "appeared") when I had little exposure to fantasy except the Inheritance cycle, so my current story has some Eragon-like elements...magic is one of them.

My magic is neutral. By neutral I mean it is neither good nor bad, and is inherent to the world. It can be used for good or bad. It is not a sin to use it. Even so, I don't think my portrayal of magic encourages use of it in real life. Quintor (God) gave my people magic to protect themselves after Cae'ach (Satan -- I like apostrophes ;) ) rebelled, if I remember correctly. Sometimes I astonish myself with my lack of memory skills.

Where was I?


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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:13 pm 
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::attempts to remember her previous discourse::

I was going to continue here, but sounds like I have to get off the computer.

I will note, though, that I read 4 pages of Eragon and didn't like it. :? So I don't know exactly what you mean, Lady [elvish name I can't spell].

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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:45 am 
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Lady Eruwaedhiel wrote:

My magic is neutral. By neutral I mean it is neither good nor bad, and is inherent to the world. It can be used for good or bad. It is not a sin to use it. Even so, I don't think my portrayal of magic encourages use of it in real life. Quintor (God) gave my people magic to protect themselves after Cae'ach (Satan -- I like apostrophes ;) ) rebelled, if I remember correctly.


Well, that's what I am saying. And Eragon's magic has quite a history, you've got to look into the history he provides. If I remember correctly, most of the currently operating magic in that world was developed by a mystical race that has disappeared, so don't really understand how it operates. It should also be noted that Eragon's magic is bad form: magic powers are conveniently possessed by persons of such-and-such family, the dragons happen to choose such-and-such person to bond with, etc. It's really somewhat lazy. (No offense.)

Besides that, Eragon's magic constantly blurs lines between right and wrong, and tangles morality with a bunch of catch 22's. If a person cannot lie while speaking the old tongue, but a person can say something they don't mean, then couldn't a person change history by telling a new history in the old tongue? It's a huge problem with the magic plot-mechanic that needed major adjustment.

Inherent magic is a bit like the Force in Star Wars. It's a bit too convenient and far too mystical.

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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 1:22 pm 
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'Inherent' magic is cobha. What Lady Eruwaedhiel is talking about is cobha, not strictly magic at all (though you can call it that if you want to).

_________________
I am knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order, and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.

note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.

Proverbs 25:8 Go not forth hastily to strive, lest thou know not what to do in the end thereof, when thy neighbour hath put thee to shame.


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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:58 pm 
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Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
'Inherent' magic is cobha. What Lady Eruwaedhiel is talking about is cobha, not strictly magic at all (though you can call it that if you want to).


Pardon me, I should have been more clear.

Cobha can be used inappropriately. The most obvious example is the Force from Star Wars. (Although it is never referred to as magic.) What I mean is that sometimes, when not done properly, inherent magic takes on a mystical tone.

I would also suggest answering this question: What is the magic inherently a part of? Is it simply a part of the way a world operates? Is it an inherent personality trait in certain genetic lines? The answer can effect both the usefulness and the appropriateness of cobha.

But again, pardon my generalization. I will rephrase what I said previously: Inherent magic sometimes tends to be too mystical and too convenient.

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I am Ebed Eleutheros, redeemed from slavery in sin to the bond-service of my Master, Jesus Christ.

Redemption is to be purchased, to have a price paid. So I was redeemed from my master sin, and from justice, which demanded my death. For He paid the price of sin by becoming sin, and met the demands of justice by dying for us.

For all men have a master. But a man cannot have two masters. For he will love one and hate the other. You cannot serve God and sin. So I die to the old, as He died, and I am resurrected to the new, as He was resurrected.

Note: Ebed is Hebrew for bondsman, Eleutheros is Greek for unrestrained (not a slave).


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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:26 pm 
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Neil of Erk wrote:
Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
'Inherent' magic is cobha. What Lady Eruwaedhiel is talking about is cobha, not strictly magic at all (though you can call it that if you want to).


Pardon me, I should have been more clear.

Cobha can be used inappropriately. The most obvious example is the Force from Star Wars. (Although it is never referred to as magic.) What I mean is that sometimes, when not done properly, inherent magic takes on a mystical tone.

I would also suggest answering this question: What is the magic inherently a part of? Is it simple a part of the way a world operates? Is it an inherent personality trait in certain genetic lines? The answer can effect both the usefulness and the appropriateness of cobha.

But again, pardon my generalization. I will rephrase what I said previously: Inherent magic sometimes tends to be too mystical and too convenient.


Agreed. Those are very good questions to ask.

Also, is the cobha subservient to God? Was it designed by Him to bring glory to Him just like the ability to run fast or a talent to play music (both of which in our world look like they are handed out randomly)?

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I am knighted to the warfare of truth by the calling of Christ, the Master of my order, and thus, though poorly is it ever met by my feeble abilities, is my mission: to combat those ideas that are rooted in mindsets that are contrary to my Master.

note: emeth is Hebrew for truth, right, faithful;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.

Proverbs 25:8 Go not forth hastily to strive, lest thou know not what to do in the end thereof, when thy neighbour hath put thee to shame.


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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:09 pm 
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Sir Emeth Mimetes wrote:
Was it designed by Him to bring glory to Him just like the ability to run fast or a talent to play music (both of which in our world look like they are handed out randomly)?
Sounds like the point I was trying to make earlier :) Great minds think alike....so how did WE pull it off? ;)

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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:09 pm 
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Really, everything is under God, so God would have created and controlled it. Good point.
I don't think that the Force is meant to be really mystical. It is kinda the cobha of the Star Wars universe.

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"Many who live deserve death, and some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Do not be so eager to deal out death and judgment, for even the Wise cannot see all ends."
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"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"
-Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, (in Sherlock Holmes)
________________________

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Lost Son: 3,782 words http://www.holyworlds.org/forum/viewtop ... 117&t=1844
Red Son: 1,726 words http://www.holyworlds.org/forum/viewtop ... 117&t=3008
Prodigal Son: Developing Stage
Grateful Son: Developing Stage
The Setting Sons: Developing Stage
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Wings from above: Developing Stage

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 Post subject: Re: "Magic"
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:23 pm 
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Griffin wrote:
Really, everything is under God, so God would have created and controlled it. Good point.


So therefore that fact ought to be pointed out in the book lest the reader think that God has nothing to do with it. Yes?

Quote:
I don't think that the Force is meant to be really mystical. It is kinda the cobha of the Star Wars universe.


Um, yeah, it is. From my limited research, apparently Lucas intended it to be completely fictional, but in-universe it is meant to be both a superpower and a religion. (attempting to make their world work without God)

So at the same time it is both cobha (as a superpower) and religion (particularly when it starts to talk about Force ghosts and such...).

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