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 Post subject: Preachy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:19 pm 
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What are some good ways of discussing biblical truths without sounding preachy? What are some of your techniques towards avoiding this?

- Terra


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 Post subject: Re: Preachy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:23 pm 
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I'm not sure exactly how I would classify my techniques. Originally my work wasn't going to be obviously Christian (so if it got published I wouldn't lose a fan base). Then I got thinking "Then why am I even writing?" I just asked God to make it the book He wanted me to write and, while it is clearly Christian, I still wouldn't say it's too preachy.

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 Post subject: Re: Preachy
PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:14 am 
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"Preachy-ness" is a complicated subject. It's an oft-discussed issue on the screenwriting forum I frequent, where everyone is obsessive about avoiding OTN (on-the-nose: overtly direct and obvious) dialog and morals. It's something I'm constantly working to improve in my writing, so I have a bit of advice borrowed from my screenwriting mentor...

Write about a truth that you have personal experience (struggle) with. Don't tell us what you learned - show us how you learned it.

What that means is - use your character's journey to lead your audience through a moral arc instead of forcing it down their throats. Show me, by what your character does and learns, how the truth applies.

The hardest part about this is portraying a character when they're sinning. As my mentor says, preachy-ness usually comes about when people think of a problem "other people have" and construct a simple narrative to illustrate a simple solution.

Your goal as a writer is to lead your audience along a journey they can empathize with. Show us a character that is lovably human. Have him exhibit a fault in such a way that we understand why he's sinning (if we even realize it's sin yet) and sympathize with his struggle. Then, as you guide your character through a journey and he learns the wrongness of his actions, we'll learn the lesson too and be changed.

In summary, to best way to avoid preachy-ness is to talk about a moral/truth that you struggle with (or have struggled with in the past) yourself!

I hope that made sense out-of-context! If you're willing to do a bit of wax on/wax off (that is, homework!), I can send to you via PM an exercise from my mentor. It will walk you through this notion extensively. It's a long assignment, so I won't post it here, but it's incredibly valuable.

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 Post subject: Re: Preachy
PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:12 am 
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Yeah, that makes sense. :)

Thanks, that'd be great!

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 Post subject: Re: Preachy
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:41 pm 
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Another technique to avoid the sound of preaching in fictional writing is to use a normative character, that is, a character who believes just as the author does. Here's an example from a story of mine where I do something like this. Caeron is the first to speak, and is the first person "I" throughout:

Quote:
 “I have heard rumors of it, and that there was a great war that I somehow overlooked. That might be the better for us all though, because I might have contracted myself to the wrong army.”
 Hadraik cut in, “You were always the less scrupulous one in any situation.”
 A harsh silence ensued that did not relent until I awkwardly said, “Yes, well, anyhow, as it is, I am now contracted to the ‘correct’ side I suppose?”
 The other three muttered their assent together.


Now that may not be the best example, but you can clearly see that Caeron is not the most scrupulous. I never said so, but by how he talks about right and wrong and what Hadraik thinks you know what the author thinks. Another way of doing this to be even more subtle would be after Caeron describes one of the many offensive things he's done, just write, "Hadraik gulped, but said nothing." Even that little motion of the throat betrays instantly that what Caeron did this time is offensive.

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 Post subject: Re: Preachy
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:39 pm 
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One way to make the message of your fiction seem natural rather than forced is to view your story as a parable. The events in the story illustrate the message, rather than you having to tell it, sort of like what Reiyen mentioned about using the actions of characters.

This is of course easier said than done. :D

I do think I should point out, though, that much of the current 'preachiness' controversy I hear about all the time seems to be coming from people who are embarrassed to state their beliefs rather than concerned about the integrity of the story, or who are taking too seriously the attacks of biased critics.

To some extent, a story that doesn't have a message of Biblical truth by default has a message of deception.

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 Post subject: Re: Preachy
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:21 pm 
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It's hard to show Biblical truth in moment without sounding preachy, but can be done, as others have showed, often by a student/mentor conversation. On the other hand, it's not difficult at all to show Biblical morals throughout the scope of a story. And sometimes the reader is not even aware he has been influenced. A reader who really gets into a story and enjoys reading goes through the journey with character, both physically and mentally.

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 Post subject: Re: Preachy
PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:12 pm 
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I say the best way to keep if from being to preachy is too not purposely try to preach, if you're any good at writing you won't have to, your ideas will be expressed.

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 Post subject: Re: Preachy
PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:34 pm 
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I have struggled a little with this. But then I realized I can't write something that I don't understand, or know little about. I need to write from the angle I understand, so my next novel is one about a man searching. I can understand a searching heart, even though I have been a Christian my whole life. You need to write what you identify with, so your audience can see that your heart truly is in your writing. If you write about something you don't identify with well, it will sound preachy.

Whatever part of the Word you are most intrigued by, write about it. It's what your most familiar about and you will feel comfortable writing it. My view, anyway. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Preachy
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:34 pm 
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I didn't totally read everything on this thread, for lack of time (I will go back and read them when I get the time, though =D) but I wanted to throw in my two cents.

I agree that making a character arc throughout the entire book, telling a lesson you learned in your life, is a good idea. I do think that having a different God in your book can be dangerous though, so just make sure that when you point people to something, you are clearly pointing them to Jesus Christ, and not your made-up god. =) (Just thought I'd throw that in to consider)

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 Post subject: Re: Preachy
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:47 am 
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Every Christian Fantasy I've ever read was so preachy it was painful.
Young people trying to write deep stuff like Pilgrim Progress will fail. Spiritual writing is for people with more experience and a lot of wisdom collected through the years. Does this mean your writing be completely un "lesson" teaching? No, but it needs to be done right.

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(That's why Lewis isn't preachy. He was a wise old man.)

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 Post subject: Re: Preachy
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:13 am 
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brinkstrigg wrote:
Every Christian Fantasy i've ever read was so preachy it was painful.
young people trying to write deep stuff like Pilgrim Progress will fail. Spiritual writing is for people with more experience and a lot of wisdom collected through the years. does this mean your writing be completely un "lesson" teaching? No, but it needs to be done right.


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(That's why Lewis isn't preachy. He was a wise old man.)


I disagree. If God has put it on a young person's heart to write something deep and convicting, they will succeed; even if that means only one person benefits from it, it's a success. Spiritual writing is for anyone who are convicted to write it. However, I do believe someone (young or old) must know what they're talking about if their to undergo this challenging kind of writing.

As for Lewis (I'm guessing you're referring to C.S. Lewis?) you are right; he's not preachy. (My view of Narnia) But may I say, when I read one of the Narnia books, I couldn't tell it was Christian even though it was meant to be. How then will this impact an athiest?

That's my point of view, anyway. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Preachy
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:07 pm 
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You couldn't tell it was Christian!!?!?
I have yet to see a young person that had something on "their heart" that was a good allegory.

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 Post subject: Re: Preachy
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:12 pm 
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Christian fantasy doesn't necessarily equal allegory...true allegory is hard, and I don't think most authors try for it. On the other hand, I generally don't read much Christian fiction because I often do find it to be preachy.

*shrugs* If you think God put it on your heart, though, definitely write it. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Preachy
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:13 pm 
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brinkstrigg wrote:
You couldn't tell it was Christian!!?!?
I have yet to see a young person that had something on "there heart" that was a good Allegory.



That is sad, however I agree with Bush here, I believe God can use young people and older people alike. I guess it depends what you, as an individual, see as a 'good allegory.' :) May I say with all humbleness that maybe you haven't read the ones that there are out there?

I have heard that C.S Lewis was not a Christian when he wrote the Narnia books and he never meant them to be 'Christian books.' I think that some people would read the Narnia books and not see that 'Christian aspect' from it and maybe as Christians we see it because we read the Bible and can see some similarities.

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 Post subject: Re: Preachy
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:21 pm 
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brinkstrigg wrote:
I have yet to see a young person that had something on "there heart" that was a good Allegory.

Hey, hey, what makes a "good allegory" is very subjective. It is entirely possible that what you think make a "good allegory" can indeed only been done by adults, and what Maid thinks makes a "good allegory" can indeed be made by younger authors.

Also, this is a thread to talk about how to make a point without being preachy, not about who can make a point without being preachy and who can't.

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 Post subject: Re: Preachy
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:47 pm 
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A fantasy with a moral isn't necessarily an allegory. (Lord of the Rings, The Silmarillion, etc.)

A fantasy that is metaphorical isn't necessarily an allegory. (Chronicles of Narnia, etc.)

Here's a question: how do you define preachy?

I define "preachy" as something which offends a person by presenting a view of morality, religion, politics, environmentalism, etc., which is contradictory to their own.

Note that a contradictory view can be presented which does not offend the person in question. Thousands of extremely conservative Christians watched and enjoyed Avatar, a movie which presents messages diametrically opposed to the worldview of those movie goers.

They weren't offended because they chose not to be.

Here's a better question: is being preachy bad writing?

That depends on how you preach.

For example: Frank Peretti's young adult series, Cooper Kids, states the message of each book so firmly and clearly that a person who disagrees with that message will feel as if they have been hit on the head with a twenty pound Bible.

In short, they won't respond positively to the story.

But now let's look at a movie, The Second Chance.

No one ever explicitly states the message. You realize what the message is. The only people offended are those Christians who disagree with or are convicted by the message.

Even better is Never Let You Go, Erin Healy's first solo novel.

Until the very end, Healy doesn't reveal the message. But the book is such a profound argument in favor of her message that the only people who are offended are those who resist the will of the Lord.

Here's the best question: what does God want us to preach?

Read this article by our own Robert Treskillard and decide for yourself: What is Christian Fantasy?

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 Post subject: Re: Preachy
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:06 pm 
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Then you get C.S. Lewis whose preachy writing is the equivalent of being whacked in the back of the head with a two by four but is so well written that you either keep reading or put it down and say thank you same time tomorrow?

And no, he was most certainly a Christian when he wrote The Chronicles. Compare them to Mere Christianity if you doubt.

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note: kitra is Hebrew for royalty, the crowned one;
mimetes is Greek for an imitator or follower.


All resemblance to persons, people, friends, relatives, quotes, cultures, artificial intelligences, inside jokes, pets, unclaimed personalities, sentient objects, extra-terrestrials, inter-terrestrials, and draperies living, dead, undead, or comatose in any of my work are purely coincidental, incidental, circumstantial, inadvertent, unplanned, unforeseen, and unintentional. There's seriously no way I was referring to you. Honest.

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 Post subject: Re: Preachy
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:34 pm 
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Neil of Erk wrote:
I define "preachy" as something which offends a person by presenting a view of morality, religion, politics, environmentalism, etc., which is contradictory to their own.
I think "preachy" entails a certain amount of blatancy in the presentation of the contradictory view. For instance, the Christian view is pretty clearly presented in LOTR and Narnia, yet many non-Christians have read them and not been offended.

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 Post subject: Re: Preachy
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:22 am 
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The fact is that Christian allegories written by Christian young people don't hit the market, at least not as much as other stuff. That is probably why it is difficult to find good ones. Besides, as Neil of Erk pointed out, fantasy with a moral does not equal allegory. There are lots of good stories, that have morals, by Christian young people, including myself, in "The Fireside" on this very forum.

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